Tariq Ali Though he By "fundamentalisms" He brings You’ve Most people He’s Yeah. And You write Pretty sure The killing What happens Other generals You would Totally. And Al Qaeda? This is The thing Meanwhile, Totally. He’d He could What’s Well, they’re Basically, You, like Absolutely. You say My own feeling So [after But the They can’t. The book’s Well, I But Islam But while Then, in But compared Such as? Two things. But the You’re When I go …I hope When you Well, I Yet it did But they’re Well I think But the Tariq Ali
is editor of London’s New Left Review, a filmmaker and novelist,
and has written more than a dozen books on world history and politics, including
1968 and After: Inside the Revolution (1978) and the 1987 Street Fighting
Years: An Autobiography of the Sixties. He was prominently involved in 60s
antiwar and radical politics; Jagger, a personal friend, is said to have written
Man" in his honor.
was born a Muslim, in 1943, in what would soon become the separatist Islamic
state of Pakistan, Ali says he was never a believer–in fact, he describes
Islam as a stagnant, backward-looking and disastrously factionalized culture
badly in need of its own Reformation. By the time he went to study at Oxford,
he was well-primed to become a secular humanist, and a Trotskyist. This all
lends him a unique perspective on Islam in world politics, evidenced in his
provocative new book, The Clash of Fundamentalisms: Crusades, Jihads and
Modernity (Verso, 342 pages, $22). (Note: Verso published my most recent
Ali means an arrogant, rigid, world-dominant American imperialism–"the
mother of all fundamentalisms"–on one side, and the equally rigid,
regressive Islamic fanaticism on the other. He depicts much of current world
events, including the attacks of Sept. 11 and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict,
as the American empire’s chickens come home to roost. He also, shockingly,
opines that because Sept. 11 did the Islamic fanatics no lasting good and caused
the U.S. no real systemic harm, the event will sink into "obscurity in
the future. It will be a footnote in the history of this century. Nothing more.
In political, economic or military terms it was barely a pinprick." He
also says that whether Americans care to know this or not, much of the world’s
peoples–including some recent immigrants right here in New York City–rejoiced
on Sept. 11.
this contentious message to NYC this week. I spoke to him last week by telephone
at his home in London.
just returned to London from a trip to Pakistan. How are people you know there
reacting to U.S. intelligence forces seizing suspected terrorists in Islamabad,
and General Musharraf’s government allowing U.S. forces the right of "hot
pursuit" into Pakistan’s territory from Afghanistan?
you speak to say we’ve lost our sovereignty. And that we’ve become
a province of the Great Empire and they do what they want with us, and there’s
absolutely nothing we can do. When I talk to people who are not so passive,
they say Musharraf will pay a very hefty price for this. The Americans will
get bored with Pakistan, as they always do, and move on somewhere else, and
he’ll be killed. That’s a common view, that his days are numbered.
been a "collaborationist," as you call him, with the U.S. for a long
his security is very, very heavy. He has three decoy cars. He never goes out
not very heavily protected. There are rumors, which I couldn’t confirm,
that there’s been one attempt on his life already. The fact that the fundamentalists
killed the brother of the Interior Minister who’s in charge of security
was an indication that they’re getting close… The big question arises,
how are they breaching security so easily? And the answer is that they’re
getting help from within.
that fundamentalists have infiltrated Pakistan’s military quite well, as
well as other branches of government.
about that. Having failed to win the people, they then really did try to penetrate
the apparatus. No one knows their exact strength. If you ask secular military
officers, they say, "They’re there, but we don’t know."
of Danny Pearl, in my opinion, could not have been done without the knowledge
of the intelligence agencies. Any Western journalist, white-skinned journalist,
who arrives in that country–not even white-skinned, any foreign
journalist who arrives in that country and tries to investigate independently
of the Ministry of Information and state agencies–is followed nonstop.
They keep tabs on them. So the notion that they don’t know who kidnapped
Danny and killed him just beggars belief. It’s just not possible.
if Musharraf is killed?
will take over. What their orientation will be depends very much on what the
United States is prepared to pay. I’m afraid it’s the cash nexus which
now accounts for loyalty. Even the generals hostile to Musharraf say, "Leave
him alone. He’s bringing in money and weapons." But when the time
comes he’ll go or he’ll be got rid of. It’s a very grim situation.
The one thing the army has been able to do in the past is restore law and order
in the country. This guy has not been able to do that. And the reason is that
to do it means taking on the forces of religious fundamentalism inside the army,
and that’s a dangerous operation. The thing to do is to disarm these groups–which
were created by the military. They know who and where they are. Why in the hell
don’t they stop them? That’s the million-dollar question.
include the Taliban as one of the fanatical groups created and funded by Pakistan?
The Taliban could not exist, and in fact ceased to exist, once the Pakistani
military withdrew their support.
the story I think Danny was investigating… I have a feeling he got too close
to something. The story everyone wants to know is Al Qaeda’s links to Pakistani
military intelligence. Most people believe the links are there, and they were
there on Sept. 11. Whether [the military] knew about [bin Laden’s plans]
no one knows. People don’t even speculate–they don’t want to
know. But the links were definitely there. These people were going in and out
of Pakistan, landing in Pakistani airports. The circumstantial evidence is there
to suggest that Daniel Pearl had got close to this story, and that rogue elements
within the intelligence agencies laid a trap for him and he fell into it.
is, the United States must know this. This is the shocking thing. They must
know it. Whereas Colin Powell has gone out of his way to say, "We know
the Pakistan government was not involved." How do you know that? No one
in Pakistan believes that. General Musharraf himself described Daniel as "an
just across the border, the alliance that’s been set up to run Afghanistan
is obviously a short-lived fiction.
Hamid Karzai–I honestly think his future is very limited. Either the poor
guy will be bumped off, or they’ll have to take him out and find him a
job as a fashion model in New York and Rome.
be very good at it.
walk the runway, show the latest shawls and caps. But I don’t think he’s
got a future in Afghanistan.
the feeling about this in Pakistan?
feeling, "We told you so." They warned the Americans behind the scenes
what would happen if the Taliban was dislodged. This was a regime we could have
controlled. Now there’ll be Russian influence, Iranian influence, Indian
influence, no one power will be able to control the situation and it’s
going to lead to chaos and intra-fighting.
the struggle–if one’s being utterly straightforward and cynical–has
been between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance regarding who runs the drug
trade through which part of the world. The Taliban–until the United States
paid them some hundreds of millions of dollars to stop in 2000–used to
smuggle drugs out of Pakistan, through Peshawar and Karachi to come to Europe.
The Northern Alliance drug trade came through the Russian mafia, Central Asia–Kosovo
was the big base, and from there it went all over Europe. With the defeat of
the Taliban, the Northern Alliance people are openly laughing. "We’ve
now got the monopoly on the drug trade." The Russian mafia will be having
a field day. Pakistani heroin traffickers are going to lose a lot of money now.
many others, describe the Wahhabist Saudi elite as, in a sense, the "mother
of all terrorists." They created and unleashed Osama bin Laden, they funded
the schools in Pakistan where the Taliban were trained, they fund fanatical
Islamist groups worldwide.
in the book that what’s needed in Saudi Arabia is a revolution.
is that the monarchy, this sort of Mafia-type family which the United States
gave the franchise to run that part of the world, their days are numbered. And
they know it. Which is why they’re squirming. If you ask which country
in the world was most seriously shaken by Sept. 11, the answer is Saudi Arabia.
The country supplied the bulk of the hijackers who carried out the hits. Osama
bin Laden had very close relations with the head of Saudi intelligence, Prince
Turki bin Faisal, who resigned as the head of intelligence in the last week
of August. Very close personal friend of Osama’s, responsible for sending
him to Afghanistan, kept very close contact throughout Osama’s exile…
Sept. 11] they were incredibly nervous, fearful that if Osama was caught and
killed there’d be mayhem in Saudi Arabia. But they were also very upset
at the open criticism of them being voiced in the American press, especially
The New Yorker, with its close links to the spooks. It was coming up
with lots of material that could only have been supplied by spooks, and the
Saudis knew that.
U.S. cannot overtly move against the Saudi royal family.
Who would then run that area? I mean, I’m sure there are think tanks considering
it. One possibility is to balkanize Saudi Arabia and give the franchise to the
holy cities [Mecca and Medina] to the King of Jordan’s family–who
technically should have them because they’re the direct descendants of
Mohammed–and give the oil wells to someone else.
called The Clash of Fundamentalisms. In the U.S. we’re used to hearing
"fundamentalism" applied to Christians here, or more recently to Islamic
fanatics. You say "American imperialism" is "the mother of all
fundamentalisms." Explain that.
just thought that if we’re talking about an outlook of the world which
is incredibly rigid and refuses to see reason or think rationally, then, even
though it’s secular, the imperial outlook can be categorized as such. Also,
it was an attempt to rap Huntington on the knuckles. [Former LBJ counterinsurgency
expert Samuel P. Huntington, who argued in his much-discussed 1993 Foreign
Affairs article "The Clash of Civilizations?" that, pace
Francis Fukuyama, the fall of communism had ended the era of ideological dispute,
but also ushered in a new era of cultural clashes between the democratic West
and especially Islam and China.] This is not a civilizational clash.
This is a clash between an imperial power and religious fundamentalisms which
are nothing in terms of power compared to the imperial fundamentalists.
is a warlike construct, founded on conquest and expansion. Isn’t it now
simply a weaker imperialist impulse than the American version?
it was founded on conquest, it’s Islam’s tragedy that it conquered
too much of the world too quickly. It had no time, like Christianity did, to
develop before it became a major religion. It had to develop an ideology on
the hoof. Within 100 years of Mohammed’s death it had reached the Atlantic
coast and the Chinese coast. Once it conquered, it became a very passive religion,
especially in the Arab world. So when the Crusaders hit it in the 12th century,
they were completely unprepared. It took them 100 years [to take back Jerusalem],
and the leader who organized them used to constantly say, "Look at the
Christians. They know how to wage holy war."
the 20th century, the first person to use the term holy war was Zbigniew Brzezinski,
Carter’s national security adviser, who called the Afghan war [with the
Soviet Union] a holy war. He said [to the U.S.-backed mujahideen], "Go
back and build your mosques. This is a holy war against the infidel and God
is on your side." So the jihad of the 20th century was launched by the
State Dept. and the Pentagon!
to the power of the United States, Islam is nothing. This Al Qaeda group is
3000, 4000 people at most. The thing is how to cut off the flow of young, middle-class
professional kids to it. That requires a political solution.
One, lay off Iraq. If they go after Iraq it’ll just exacerbate the situation.
I’m really frightened by that. Some group of martyrs will want revenge
and try to outdo the Sept. 11 people, and God knows what they’ll do.
most important thing that’s driving people crazy is the Palestinian situation
and the fact that the United States is openly backing Israel. There I think
the only long-term solution is a sovereign Palestinian state. This is the last
colonial struggle of the 20th century, and the Israelis just have to bite the
bullet and move on.
a non-believing Muslim. There’s an entire generation of younger Muslims
who are very much believers, along a spectrum from being sympathetic to the
current rumblings of worldwide jihad to happily martyring themselves for the
cause. What do you say to them?
to Pakistan, I meet quite a lot of people who are unbelievers, but would not
say so in public. I think the hardcore of young believers, curiously enough,
is in the West, in Europe and North America. I think one of the problems here
is that being a hardcore believer has become part of identity politics. "This
is our identity." With them I have arguments all the time… Some of them
are listening and talking, but they balk when I say bluntly, "Look, I am
an atheist. These are the reasons Islam has become totally atrophied as a religion.
It’s not had its Reformation. It’s just stuck now. Using its old texts
to move forward is not going to work."
that they are listening. I know that the situation in Palestine [for example]
is awful. I have large numbers of Palestinian friends. But I do not like the
strategy of using suicide bombers to kill civilians. I think it is counterproductive.
I think that the only way the Palestinians can get somewhere is by winning over
a sizable core of Israelis to their cause. Which will happen. These killings
don’t help. You say that and they scream, "You don’t live here!
You don’t know what it’s like!" This is absolutely true. On the
other hand, I am not in favor of sending our young people to kill themselves.
"They want to do it! They’re despairing." I know, I know. It’s
an awful situation.
come to New York City, I’m wondering how people are going to respond to
your notion that Sept. 11 was just a blip on the screen of history.
know it’s difficult for people to accept that at the moment. But historically
it will be seen as such. In terms of punishing the military or economic power
of the United States it was barely a pinprick. Psychologically, and as a spectacle,
it was amazing. But what they actually achieved, apart from changing the landscape
of New York, was not very much in my opinion. The Muslims don’t like this
being said, either. They think it was a big hit.
focus the Bush administration on an ongoing war on terrorism.
just using the events of Sept. 11 to remap the world.
that’s historically significant!
question is, were they doing this in any case, and did this just accelerate
the process. I believe that’s the case.
will speak this Wednesday, April 10, 7:30 p.m., at the Brooklyn Ethical Culture
Society, 53 Prospect Park W. (betw. 1st & 2nd Sts.). Call the Community
Bookstore at 718-783-3075 for more information; with Edward Said on Thursday,
April 11, 6:30 p.m., at Columbia University’s Davis Auditorium, Schapiro
Center, Rm. 412, W. 118th St. (betw. Amsterdam Ave. &Morningside Dr.),
854-7641; and Friday, April 12, 7 p.m., at the Socialist Scholars Conference
at Cooper Union, 51 Astor Pl. (3rd Ave.), 817-7868.
And Al Qaeda?
My own feeling
When I go
Yet it did
Well I think