Go the Way of the Horse and Buggy

Written by NY Press on . Posted in Opinion and Column, Opinion Our Town, Opinion West Side Spirit, Our Town, Our Town Downtown, West Side Spirit.

A citywide ban on horse-drawn carriages is long overdue

By Elizabeth Forel

New York is one of the most congested cities in the world. It is no place for slow-moving horses pulling flimsy carriages mixed in with taxis, fire trucks, police cars and buses.

In January 2006, a horrific accident occurred on 9th Avenue and 50th Street that involved a young carriage horse named Spotty, who was returning to his stable. Reacting to unknown stimuli, he bolted frantically into traffic, smashing into a station wagon and wrapping himself over the vehicle, the carriage still attached. He was later euthanized and his driver hospitalized in a coma. Unfortunately, this is typical horse behavior.

This was the beginning of our campaign to shut down the inherently inhumane and unsafe horse-drawn carriage trade in New York City, an industry that has no more than 160 active members but remains politically entrenched. It is an industry that a majority of New Yorkers want banned.

At that time, we needed to re-educate politicians, media and even activists. Today, the issue has caught on and has received much publicity. Several other organizations are also involved. It is an issue whose time has come.

More and more people around the globe are becoming sensitized to animal suffering and want it to stop. From cities legislating a ban on bull fighting or animal circuses to campaigns to ban inhumane horse-drawn carriages in Rome, Vienna, Chicago, Cozumel and Atlanta, to name a few, the time has come for animals to be given their due. To an enlightened populace, ethics, morality and compassion trump selfishness and greed every time.

The New York City law allows these dispirited carriage horses to work for nine hours straight, seven days a week between the shafts of their carriage, either pulling or parked waiting for a customer—bored, captive, not even able to scratch an itch.

As herd animals, horses need turnout to pasture to mingle with other horses, graze on grass and mutually groom each other, a great stress reliever. This does not exist in the New York City stables. The five-week so-called furloughs will never substitute for daily turnout.
The horses live in four multistory stables on the far west side of Manhattan, where the stalls, legislated at 60 square feet minimum, are less than half the size experts recommend—stall guidelines for voluntary certification by the New York state Horse Health Assurance Program are 144 square feet for mid-sized horses and 196 square feet for larger drafts. These stalls are mostly on the upper levels, accessed by a steep ramp.

Since July 2011, there have been 11 carriage horse incidents, including one horse death, that of Charlie, who dropped dead on Oct. 23, 2011, while pulling a carriage. Several others were due to the horse spooking, but on Nov. 4 and again on Dec. 4, a horse collapsed on the street while pulling a carriage. There is no reporting requirement in the law, so it is probable that many more accidents occur and go undocumented.

Every poll that has been taken since 2006—including those by CBS, The Wall Street Journal, New York Daily News and Extra—shows 75-80 percent of respondents favor a ban of the industry. Currently, we have over 122,000 signatures on an online petition in support of the Avella/Rosenthal state bill to ban the New York City carriage industry.

While the people want a ban, politicians are a different matter. In 2009, the Teamsters began to represent the carriage drivers. It is not a real union shop; there is no collective bargaining or benefits, and owners and drivers are in one local. Only about half of the owners and drivers are members. But, as a strong union, the Teamsters wield much influence with City Council members who could otherwise make a difference.

The city has enabled this tiny business for years, granting such things as under-market rent for a city-owned stable, killing a Council bill that would have mandated sprinklers and quashing a bill that would have prevented the horses from going to slaughter auctions, the latter thanks to Council Speaker Christine Quinn.

Currently, drivers are not accountable for horses sold outside New YorkCity, so it is not known where the majority of them go—a huge turnover of 60-70 horses each year.

Our goal is to see the industry shut down and the horses retired to a sanctuary or a good home. It is time to move New York City into the 21st century with compassion for all beings.

Elizabeth Forel is president of the Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages.

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  • http://twitter.com/Trixiekin Trixie Sataloff

    Elizabeth Forel is an idiot.

    • Mrs. H.B.Willis

      Once again Elizabeth Forel, president and co-founder of Horses Without Carriages International. This is a non-profit organization whose sole purpose is to ban horse-drawn carriages EVERYWHERE — not “just” In New York City. Once again in this article, she is misinforming the public about horse-drawn carriages. This woman is a “semi-professional” carriage livery basher and has been working against the NYC carriages for about 30 years, not just since the accident she cites in 2006.

      She tips her hand to show that she is just one of those people who doesn’t like horse-drawn carriages every time she gets a chance. While she advocates for a total ban on horse-drawn carriages in New York City allegedly because they are dangerous, she says nothing about the pedicabs, which are smaller, harder to see, much more flimsy, and even SLOWER than the horse-drawn carriages.

      Carriage livery is not “inherently inhumane and unsafe” as she claims. All over this country there are hundreds of carriage liveries, most of them are independent small businesses run by families that operate without a SINGLE accident or incident for years at a time,. Even in NYC, the accident rate for carriages is much lower than for accidents involving motor vehicles and pedestrians. In fact, in NYC, a person has a higher probability of dying in an elevator accident than in a horse-drawn carriage accident.

      Most carriage livery operaters treat their horses more like pets than like livestock. Are there some “bad apples” in the livery trade? Sure. But there are anti-cruelty, abuse and neglect laws already on the books to deal with these people in all 50 states. All it takes is someone willing to file a complaint and provide some proof — like a photo or video.

      Ms. Forel keeps claiming that “drivers not accountable for horses sold outside New York City.” With this statment she implies that something “bad” is happening to these horses. But in fact, the current ordinances dealing with carriage horses stipulate that they cannot be “diisposed of in an inhumane manner.”

      Most of the horses that age out of the NYC carriage livery service are retired by their owners at their own expense, sold to smaller special occasions liveries where they work just a few days a month or sold to private individuals who ride or drive them for pleasure. And as a point of fact, there isn’t any law or ordinance that tracks the private sale of horses that are not engaged in the carriage trade, but whose owners live in NYC either. Notice that Ms. Forel diesn’t even mention these.

      The truth is that there is a very organized campaign by radical animal rights extremists, of which I believe Ms. Forel to be a part or at least in sympathy with, that are actively trying to ban the “use of animals by humans” because THEY have decided that animal/ human interaction is unethical, or imoral. These same groups are not only against circuses, and horse-drawn carriages, but they also oppose service animals such as seeing eye dogs, and horseback riding therapy programs or any therapy programs that employ human-animal interaction.

      The polls she likes to cite are ALL unscientific self-selecting polls and have been identified as such by the organizations who sponsored them. Most are internet polls that do not stop individuals from “voting early and often” for their point of view. the anti-carriage people are very organized, and always swarm to vote in these polls.

      Why am I bothering to write this detailed rebuttal to Ms. Forel? I am a life-long horse lover and owner. I run a small privately funded horse retirement farm in Louisiana. We operate a special events livery that helps fund the care of up to six older horses at a time for life here at our farm. If people like Ms. Forel get their way and succeed in banning the carriages in NYC, they will not stop there. They have said as much. If the Forels of this world get their way, our livery would be banned, too, eventually. Since we do not shake down the general public for donations to fund our retirement farm, our only outside source of income to run our retirement program would be banned– and for no good reason.

      Carriage livery is safe, humane and unique. It has a long tradition and history. It promotes the bond that people have with the natural world including other species. Carriage livery is green transportation that does not rely on fossil fuels. Carriage livery provides a livelihood for thousands of people and horses. Carriage livery does not deserve to be targeted by fanatical animal rights extremists with their false claims of “inherent cruelty” and their repeated unsubstantiated claims of “horses collapsing” in the streets every time a horse has a misstep and slips. Ms. Forel, and the rest like her, do a grave diservice to the general public with their misinformation, misrepresentation of the facts and hysterical and unfounded claims of widespread cruelty in carriage livery.

      LikeUnlike · Once again Elizabeth Forel, president and co-founder of Horses Without Carriages International. This is a non-profit organization whose sole purpose is to ban horse-drawn carriages EVERYWHERE — not “just” In New York City. Once again in this article, she is misinforming the public about horse-drawn carriages. This woman is a “semi-professional” carriage livery basher and has been working against the NYC carriages for about 30 years, not just since the accident she cites in 2006.

      She tips her hand to show that she is just one of those people who doesn’t like horse-drawn carriages every time she gets a chance. While she advocates for a total ban on horse-drawn carriages in New York City allegedly because they are dangerous, she says nothing about the pedicabs, which are smaller, harder to see, much more flimsy, and even SLOWER than the horse-drawn carriages.

      Carriage livery is not “inherently inhumane and unsafe” as she claims. All over this country there are hundreds of carriage liveries, most of them are independent small businesses run by families that operate without a SINGLE accident or incident for years at a time,. Even in NYC, the accident rate for carriages is much lower than for accidents involving motor vehicles and pedestrians. In fact, in NYC, a person has a higher probability of dying in an elevator accident than in a horse-drawn carriage accident.

      Most carriage livery operaters treat their horses more like pets than like livestock. Are there some “bad apples” in the livery trade? Sure. But there are anti-cruelty, abuse and neglect laws already on the books to deal with these people in all 50 states. All it takes is someone willing to file a complaint and provide some proof — like a photo or video.

      Ms. Forel keeps claiming that “drivers not accountable for horses sold outside New York City.” With this statment she implies that something “bad” is happening to these horses. But in fact, the current ordinances dealing with carriage horses stipulate that they cannot be “diisposed of in an inhumane manner.”

      Most of the horses that age out of the NYC carriage livery service are retired by their owners at their own expense, sold to smaller special occasions liveries where they work just a few days a month or sold to private individuals who ride or drive them for pleasure. And as a point of fact, there isn’t any law or ordinance that tracks the private sale of horses that are not engaged in the carriage trade, but whose owners live in NYC either. Notice that Ms. Forel diesn’t even mention these.

      The truth is that there is a very organized campaign by radical animal rights extremists, of which I believe Ms. Forel to be a part or at least in sympathy with, that are actively trying to ban the “use of animals by humans” because THEY have decided that animal/ human interaction is unethical, or imoral. These same groups are not only against circuses, and horse-drawn carriages, but they also oppose service animals such as seeing eye dogs, and horseback riding therapy programs or any therapy programs that employ human-animal interaction.

      The polls she likes to cite are ALL unscientific self-selecting polls and have been identified as such by the organizations who sponsored them. Most are internet polls that do not stop individuals from “voting early and often” for their point of view. the anti-carriage people are very organized, and always swarm to vote in these polls.

      Why am I bothering to write this detailed rebuttal to Ms. Forel? I am a life-long horse lover and owner. I run a small privately funded horse retirement farm in Louisiana. We operate a special events livery that helps fund the care of up to six older horses at a time for life here at our farm. If people like Ms. Forel get their way and succeed in banning the carriages in NYC, they will not stop there. They have said as much. If the Forels of this world get their way, our livery would be banned, too, eventually. Since we do not shake down the general public for donations to fund our retirement farm, our only outside source of income to run our retirement program would be banned– and for no good reason.

      Carriage livery is safe, humane and unique. It has a long tradition and history. It promotes the bond that people have with the natural world including other species. Carriage livery is green transportation that does not rely on fossil fuels. Carriage livery provides a livelihood for thousands of people and horses. Carriage livery does not deserve to be targeted by fanatical animal rights extremists with their false claims of “inherent cruelty” and their repeated unsubstantiated claims of “horses collapsing” in the streets every time a horse has a misstep and slips. Ms. Forel, and the rest like her, do a grave diservice to the general public with their misinformation, misrepresentation of the facts and hysterical and unfounded claims of widespread cruelty in carriage livery.
      LikeUnlike ·
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      • http://www.facebook.com/sabine.cobb Sabine Cobb

        Dear Ms Forel.
        If the ASPCA falls down on the job, maybe you should lobby to have Ed Sayres removed from his position as executive director of the ASPCA.
        No, wait, as co founder and co president of the NYCLASS, he has a vested financial interest in having the carriages removed from Central Park…oh bummer.
        I am sure most of the world can see a blatant conflict of interest here.
        And even with this much financial backing the anti carriage protesters are not able to make any cruelty accusations stick.
        The ASPCA is on the top of the list of agencies to oversee the carriage businesses, one of five if I recall it right. The fox has the keys to the hen house and still…please do try to explain that to the public.

  • mdnardella

    122,000 signatures on the petition? Congrats, that’s 1.5% of the population of NYC. Hardly the “majority of New Yorkers” you claim want the industry banned. Are all of those signatures actually NYC residents?

  • http://love2loveher.livejournal.com/ Jane

    The horses currently have a good home. Talk with anybody that deals with horses that need homes, and they will tell you that having a “job” is the best thing for a horse’s future well-being.

    • http://www.facebook.com/geminijoyce Joyce Shulman

      I don’t agree

  • felixthecat

    http://youtu.be/-4KCEDZ9MXA

    Drivers called volunteers dykes and niggers. what an embarrassment for this city

    • http://www.facebook.com/sundance.solo Victoria Leigh

      I would call them that in heartbeat. Idiot RARAs who don’t know a thing about horses, actually I would’ve said a lot worse.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1647811667 Heather Smith

      Oh Roxanne Delgado who do you think your fooling throwing up your videos as “evidence”. Why don’t you tell the honest truth that any sane person could deduce if they happened to notice even just the sheer volume of videos that you spend the majority of your day stalking carriage drivers spewing vulgar language at them and all sorts of other vitriol. You spend hours harrassing them and their customers and then giggle with glee and run to you tube if any of them dare stand up for themselves.

      My personal favorites examples of your behavior Roxanne D. are below where you so eloquently tell the driver hes an “animal abuser” that you should “abuse him one”, “I’ll give you 50 dollars to wipe your ass with ” .

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz6fasmnAv0&list=UUmypjYQsLtHwadAARaOQWRQ&index=10&feature=plcp

      Now for the public who doesn’t know this charming “women” and I use that term very very lightly she also was given 3 CRIMINAL citations for harassing those invited to tour Clinton Park stables as part of Clip Clop 2011 and event organized to support Blue Star Equiculture the sanctuary who is the official retirement home of any NYC carriage horse that should find its self in need of such assistance. Yes you heard me right Roxanne and Elizabeth Forel were present to protest a fund raiser for the retirement sanctuary for NYC carriage horses.

      E.Forel , Roxanne Delgado and their ilk are so perverse that they boycotted a place willing to give any NYC carriage horse in need refuge simply because Blue Star Equiculture also is a working organigic farm and draft horse rescue and some of its able bodied and minded residents continue to participate in light work doing driving clinics , draft horse husbandry clinics , community out reach programs and some light farm work. It is HORRIFYING to them that BSE allows any of its residents to work.

      They are animal abolitionists who cringe at the thought of animal /human symbiotic relationships and the NyC Carriage horses are the tip of their ice burg. An easy public patsy.

  • thetruth

    http://youtu.be/hC5L-Y88hhU

    carriage industry only defense is attacks on others includes their competitors such as pedicab drivers.

  • johnny

    Those poor horses are abused and the city looks the other way. Why do we subsidized this dirty cruel industry that pays no concession fees to the city and overcharges tourists and underreports their taxes????

    • http://twitter.com/Trixiekin Trixie Sataloff

      No, they are not abused.

    • http://www.facebook.com/sundance.solo Victoria Leigh

      The horses in the carriage industry get better care than the majority of Amish horses. Protest that instead.

      • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000020842965 Theresa Freund

        If you care, why don’t you?

    • Mrs. H.B.Willis

      No, the NYC carriage horse are not abused- if they were, there are at least FOUR different agencies that people like you could report the owners and drivers to for a look-see. There is nothing inherently cruel about carriage horse driving. You and MS. Forel may hold the opinion that it is, but use is NOT abuse. These horses are trained and acclimated to their surroundings. They get vet and farrier care and a five week vacation — at a minimum– each year.

  • http://www.facebook.com/mandy.hagan.3 Mandy Hagan

    Here’s what an actual, real-life, horse that needs help looks like:

    http://bhfer.wordpress.com/

    Have a look at what happens to horses that don’t have jobs. Yes, pasture life is so romantic.

    The best Forel and her group can come up with is “A horse DIED!” Hey guess what. Horses die. Show us even a THEORY that Charlie would be alive had he not been a carriage horse. If an animal’s death–from natural causes, with no one to blame–disturbs you so much, you need some counseling.

    Their second favorite argument: The horses are lame/underfed/lack water/some such nonsense. Horses that are suffering from any of those things have never once been shown, not in one single picture or video, by the anti-carriage zealots. They wave around posters with a horse resting a perfectly normally-flexed leg and cry that he is injured and being forced to work. This just makes you look IGNORANT, E. Forel.

    And the most laughable–they live in a building which for some unspecified reason is unsuitable. I guess because it doesn’t look like a barn. As if horses care.

    You lack credibility above all because you turn a blind eye to all the real suffering that horses outside the city are enduring from many causes. You just don’t want anyone to see horses working and think that it’s ok, and if there were no horses in NYC then for a large population, they would never see a horse at work.

    So you find anything you can to convince the leagues of even more ignorant people who know nothing about horses that there is something inherently wrong with a horse pulling a carriage in NYC.

    Give us one good reason why. So far you haven’t. And horse people all over the world are laughing at you for the many completely stupid things on your multiple facebook pages. Keep it coming and you will assure that your position can never be taken seriously by those that actually get out of the city once in a while and see what the cruel world is really like for horses that don’t have any value.

    • felixthecat

      you took it serious enough to comment. fail

      • Ana Rosario

        Wrong. It is not about whether or not it is taken seriously or not. The issue here is that lies should not go unchallenged by those who know the truth no matter how ridiculous and loony they might be as it is the case with this article.

    • http://twitter.com/slee10018 slee11211

      Not buying it. Horses are NOT MEANT TO LIVE LIKE THAT. Period. I get that there is one zealot on this page…and it’s the one that protests a well written article with ignorance and name calling. All in the name of being a “horse person”???? Are you kidding me with this???

  • http://www.facebook.com/sabine.cobb Sabine Cobb

    In 2006 one horse died due to a tragic accident.
    In 2011 alone 237 people died on the streets of New York City. In my estimation that is well over. Seems to me the city would be better off with less cars.
    What people like Ms Forel do not want to tell the public is that the regulations for carriage horses in NYC are the strictest in any part of the horse industry. No work below 18 degrees, none above 90. 5 weeks mandatory turnout at the farm, the barns have to accept inspectors at any given time. The ASPCA, originally founded to oversee the welfare of the city’s horses, tries hard to make the case, but even putting the thumb screws to Pamela Corey, the former head veterinarian in regard of the carriage horses did not result in cruelty charges.
    http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/dvm/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=748599 her story here.

    What Ms Forel is after should put every red blooded American on the barricades: She is trying to dictate what a person can and cannot do with his or her lawful property, without having committed a crime, without being charged and without a conviction in a court of law.
    That is no different from trying to tell a cab driver how he can dispose of his old cars or demanding a person to surrender their dogs, for the only reason of disliking how the person keeps the animal.
    Ms Forel are interfering with legal businesses.
    Last July followers of Ms Forel staged a protest at a toy store in front of little girls. Not even admitted animal rights supporters can wrap their brains around actions like that!
    http://www.paganspace.net/forum/topics/anti-horse-buggy-protestors-in?xg_browser=iphone

    The truth is, plain and simple: The groups that converge in NYC to ban the carriages are not the least bit interested in the welfare of these animals. Speak to anybody who ever held a muck fork in the hand, they all will tell you, without a job there won’t be any horses.
    And exactly that is the case here.
    They cover it nice and tidy under the blanket of ‘welfare’. But when you follow the money you will find the ugly head of animal rights fanatics lurking in the wings who don’t believe any animal should be owned. not the carriage horses and not that lazy dog that is laying next to you on the couch. Those people think that Fido and Kitty are better off dead than with you.

    Ms Forel, try to find something to make this world richer and more peaceful!
    try to get the same smile from a fake antique car that you can get from a living horse in the middle of the city.

  • felixthecat

    I love how these racist uneducated animal abusers post names and slander without any substance. It’s not even worth responding but will forward it to a lawyer. Just type horsesinnyc on YouTube. You see horses working without shade in illegal hot weather. You see drivers overcharging tourists. You see them over boarding carriages. You see them assaulting volunteer and making racists remarks. Just view the truth.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1647811667 Heather Smith

      Ok Roxanne Delgado forward it to your lawyer. That is the perfect response instead of attempting to address any of the claims pointed in your direction.

    • http://twitter.com/Trixiekin Trixie Sataloff

      If you think a lawyer gives a flying fck about anonymous comments on the internet, frankly, you must be even stupider than Ms. Forel. Amazing.

  • ElizabethNYC

    yes it seems that the trolls are out in force protecting
    their abusive and inhumane way of life that is destined to end. There are
    campaigns all over the world against this “business” – from Argentina
    to Vienna to Rome to Cozumel to Philadelphia to Chicago to Atlanta, etc. etc.
    etc.

    I will address some of the comments below and then not return because it is not
    worth my time. It is impossible to argue or debate with people who are
    intellectually challenged. If is similar to this — If I were to say that
    “1 + 1 is 2.” They would respond “not it isn’t. “1 + 1
    = 5. Besides you know nothing about numbers and you are an idiot” -
    as someone called me below. That is what children resort to when they
    have no argument. Name calling and denial.

    — While NYC’s carriage trade probably has the most regulations, it means
    nothing. Everyone who knows anything about this business knows that the
    ASPCA’s oversight leaves much to be desired; the laws are either inadequate or
    not enforced. The NYPD ignores violations for the most part. It
    is joke.

    — interesting comment from Mandy Hagen (if that is her real name) She
    says – “as if the horses care.” Thank you Mandy – you have
    proved my point. You treat the horses badly and it does not matter.
    They do not care anyway according to you.

    – as for “Sabine Cobb ” – another lovely made up name
    below – Pam Corey, former ASPCA vet is quoted in a NY Post article in the
    fall of 2011 as saying that when the horses return from their furlough, they
    look worse than when they left. It was never investigated.

    – And to the person below who is putting down our 122,000
    signatures. Well it is 122, 313 as of today. That is an AMAZING,
    INCREDIBLE number of signatures for an issue that is of interest to only
    a relatively small number of people – meaning that some people do not know or
    care about the carriage horses. I am sure that you wish you could get
    that many people to support keeping them here. We are not talking about
    keeping social security or protesting against a war – things that affect all of
    us. No this is truly an amazing feat — and you know it.

    And for everyone else – you are not worth my time. It is the same old
    same old.

    In my article I did not mention the number of accidents in one year – many of
    them reported, with documenting information and pictures, directly to us.
    It is 11 – almost one per month. The law does not require that the
    drivers report accidents. If we learned about 11 with not much
    difficulty, i am sure there are many many more. They just do not get
    reported. NYC is very congested – lots of taxis, bikes, cars, buses,
    etc. Slow moving carriages have no place here.

    It is time to shut down this business. Two of the stables will have to
    shut down anyway within the next few years – 37th and 38th St. – they are in
    the path of the Hudson Yards Developments. Horse stables are being zoned
    out of Manhattan.

    In the end, this may be what does this business end.

    • Mrs. H.B.Willis

      Hey Forel- Why don’t you quit calling people “trolls” just because we don’t agree with you, and we poke holes in your false arguments with the TRUTH? And about the only way you people will be able to have any success in shutting down the NYC carriages is by using devious and underhanded tactics like rezoning their property out from under them. So much for their Constitutionally guaranteed property rights. And who is behind this Hudson Yards Developments? Some of your rich supporters, is my guess.

    • http://twitter.com/Trixiekin Trixie Sataloff

      If it “isn’t worth your time,” then why the HELL are you writing articles about it?

      The bottom line is that you are mistaken and ignorant. People have every right to disagree with you for those reasons. You can pretend that they are “trolls” or that they are using “made up names” all you want, but they have a right to disagree with you for no other reason then that you are WRONG.

      I wish you would stop trying to spread propaganda about a subject that you clearly know nothing about.

    • Mrs. H.B.Willis

      Look at Elizebet Forel posting here and calling us “trolls.” Over on her facebook page called No Walk in The Park, she is complaining that “supporters of carriage livery are calling her names” and that is the excuse she uses to justify deleting our posts that challenge her misinformation, and banning us from her pages– all of the anti-carriage extremists are the same.

      Well, I am here to tell you that she has called me the following names several different times, on several different sites: “troll, carriage industry shill, slave driver, horse abuser, animal abuser, ignorant, stupid, idiot.”

      She has never been banned from my page, but she doesn’t commentt there or on Carriage Horse Facts. She can dish it out, but can’t take it.

    • mdnardella

      “That is an AMAZING,INCREDIBLE number of signatures for an issue that is of interest to only a relatively small number of people – meaning that some people do not know or
      care about the carriage horses.”.

      Again, contradicting your claim that the majority of New Yorkers want the carriages banned. Stick to facts, Elizabeth (if that’s really your name).

  • http://twitter.com/debzarb Debbie Zarb-Cousin

    There is no valid reason to abuse horses. The carriage horses suffer terrible working conditions, breathing exhaust fumes, working long hours in extreme heat or cold and are denied any natural behaviour. You only have to look at them to see how unhappy they are doing a totally unnecessary job for people who just want to exploit them. Any one who cannot see that this is abuse must be mad.

    • Mrs. H.B.Willis

      Well Debbie, famed natural method horse trainer Buck Brannaman said in his book that the NYC carriage horses have one of the best jobs a horse can have. Horses with jobs are much more safe from abuse and neglect than horses without jobs who become a drain on their owners finances when times are tough (like NOW) and are often shipped to the auction or turned out to fend for themselves.

      And it is just YOUR opinion that the NYC carriage horses have an unnecessary job. Again, trained domestic horses cannot just “fend for themselves” out in some pasture somewhere. Out there they are also subject to the extremes of cold and heat without the shelter provided by the stables, the feed and hay provided by the carriage horse owners and the attendant vet, dental and farrier care they receive as working horses..

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001251933549 Bob Pomilla

    Oh, there may be laws regulating the carriage horses, however the business blithely ignores them. One need look no further than the recent heat wave, in which, in defiance of the (mostly useless) ASPCA and the law, drivers continued to work their horses. Then there was the recent suv/carriage collision, in which the driver, again in defiance of the law, scurried away from the scene of the accident. Nice way to impress upon the public their oft stated claim that they “love’ their horses.

    • TheBarnRules

      The drivers are not required to bring their horses in until informed by an official that the temperature is over 89 degrees and then they have at least one half hour to begin going back to the stables. You do realize that working horses in far hotter climates, for example the south east and west, work in hotter temperatures just fine? or that horses show in far hotter temperatures with no ill effect?

      The carriage driver did NOT “scurry” away. And, let’s give all the facts shall we? The driver of the SUV not only ran a red light and hit a motorcycle and the carriage, but he was driving on a suspended license. Why are you blaming the carriage driver for an accident that was in no way his fault?

  • Casey Myers

    If horses like work, it is because it keeps them physically and mentally stimulated. Fair enough. It is, however, a logical fallacy to say that horses are happiest when they have a job and, as such, the city carriage industry is good for horses and makes them happy. The conditions under which they are expected to pull carriages in NYC is inhumane. Not all jobs are created equal. There is a difference between having a job that suits you and having a job that is detriment to your mental and physical well-being. I’ve been involved with horses for 20 years and have followed the various sides of this debate quite closely. To say that the horses who pull under these conditions are enjoying it simply ridiculous.

  • http://www.facebook.com/jghdvm John G Hynes Dvm

    Ms. Forel is absolutely right about this issue, and she has done her research. As a USDA veterinarian, I can tell you that these horses are kept in miserable “stables”, which are mostly abandoned buildings on the west side. They care is NOT adequately monitored by the ASPCA. The veterinarians who treat them are being paid by the horse owners, so they will never speak negatively about them. The ASPCA officers are not doing their jobs, as Youtube videos of multiple violations show us over and over again. The carriage horse owners and drivers do not have the horse’s best interests in mind- they wear them down until they are shipped out and replaced. Until NYC wakes up and ends this archaic “business”, which is subsidized by the city, then we will always be known as a city that tolerates and promotes animal abuse.

    • http://twitter.com/Trixiekin Trixie Sataloff

      No, she is not right. Further, if you are actually a DVM, you would know what an abused horse looks like – and these animals absolutely do not meet the condition standard for poor care. So, have you actually BEEN TO the stables, or are you simply talking out of your ass?

    • Mrs. H.B.Willis

      Aren’t you another one of those SMALL ANIMAL vets, who is not certified as an equine practitioner? And by identifying yourself as a USDA vet are you saying you are actually employed by the USDA, or do you mean your credentials have been approved by that department? ALL vets in the US have to have their credentials approved by the USDA, so in effect all vets are USDA approved.

      You sir, are known as a long-time animal rights activist and anti-carriage extremist just like the “Cussin’ Vet” Mary Xanthos– another animal rights advocate and anti-carriage horse person who happens to be a practicing SMALL ANIMAL vet.

      I may not be a vet, but I have more university degrees and more post grad hours than most vets, AND 40 years of practical experience as a horse owner, horse show and events competitor and breeder. I have seen the photos and videos of the NYC stables and they look better than many show and racing barns and stables I have visited.

      ALL vets who treat horses are paid by their owners. So by your reasoning, vets NEVER speak negatively about any of their customers and go along with abuse and neglect because the owners of the horses are paying their fees– is that what you are implying?

      Are you implying this just about the NYC equine vets who treat the carriage hroses, all equine vets or ALL vets– you being one yourself? Just curious.

  • http://twitter.com/N_YPress New York Press

    by Mrs. H.B. Willis, Louisiana
    Once again Elizabeth Forel, president and co-founder of Horses Without Carriages International. This is a non-profit organization whose sole purpose is to ban horse-drawn carriages EVERYWHERE — not “just” in New York City. Once again in this article, she is misinforming the public about horse-drawn carriages. This woman is a “semi-professional” carriage livery basher and has been working against the NYC carriages for about 30 years, not just since the accident she cites in 2006.

    She tips her hand to show that she is just one of those people who doesn’t like horse-drawn carriages every time she gets a chance. While she advocates for a total ban on horse-drawn carriages in New York City allegedly because they are dangerous, she says nothing about the pedicabs, which are smaller, harder to see, much more flimsy, and even SLOWER than the horse-drawn carriages.

    Carriage livery is not “inherently inhumane and unsafe” as she claims. All over this country there are hundreds of carriage liveries, most of them are independent small businesses run by families that operate without a SINGLE accident or incident for years at a time. Even in NYC, the accident rate for carriages is much lower than for accidents involving motor vehicles and pedestrians. In fact, in NYC, a person has a higher probability of dying in an elevator accident than in a horse-drawn carriage accident.

    Most carriage livery operators treat their horses more like pets than like livestock. Are there some “bad apples” in the livery trade? Sure. But there are anti-cruelty, abuse and neglect laws already on the books to deal with these people in all 50 states. All it takes is someone willing to file a complaint and provide some proof — like a photo or video.

    Ms. Forel keeps claiming that “drivers not accountable for horses sold outside New York City.” With this statment she implies that something “bad” is happening to these horses. But in fact, the current ordinances dealing with carriage horses stipulate that they cannot be “diisposed of in an inhumane manner.”

    Most of the horses that age out of the NYC carriage livery service are retired by their owners at their own expense, sold to smaller special occasions liveries where they work just a few days a month or sold to private individuals who ride or drive them for pleasure. And as a point of fact, there isn’t any law or ordinance that tracks the private sale of horses that are not engaged in the carriage trade, but whose owners live in NYC either. Why should carriage horse owners be required to provide such information on horse sales when none are required of other horse or pet owners? Notice that Ms. Forel doesn’t even mention these other horses including the horses owned by the NYPD.

    The truth is that there is a very organized campaign by radical animal rights extremists, of which I believe Ms. Forel to be a part or at least in sympathy with, that are actively trying to ban the “use of animals by humans” because THEY have decided that animal/ human interaction is unethical, or immoral. These same groups are not only against circuses, and horse-drawn carriages, but they also oppose service animals such as seeing eye dogs, and horseback riding therapy programs or any therapy programs that employ human-animal interaction.

    The polls she likes to cite are ALL unscientific self-selecting polls, and have been identified as such by the organizations who sponsored them. Most are internet polls that do not stop individuals from “voting early and often” for their point of view. The anti-carriage people are very organized, and always swarm to vote in these polls.

    Why am I bothering to write this detailed rebuttal to Ms. Forel? I am a life-long horse lover and owner. I run a small privately funded horse retirement farm. We operate a special events livery that helps fund the care of up to six older horses at a time for life here at our farm. If people like Ms. Forel get their way and succeed in banning the carriages in NYC, they will not stop there. They have said as much. If the Forels of this world get their way, our livery would be banned, too, eventually. Since we do not shake down the general public for donations to fund our retirement farm, our only outside source of income to run our retirement program would be banned– and for no good reason.

    Carriage livery is safe, humane and unique. It has a long tradition and history. It promotes the bond that people have with the natural world including other species. Carriage livery is green transportation that does not rely on fossil fuels. Carriage livery provides a livelihood for thousands of people and horses. Carriage livery does not deserve to be targeted by fanatical animal rights extremists with their false claims of “inherent cruelty” and their repeated unsubstantiated claims of “horses collapsing” in the streets every time a horse has a misstep and slips.Ms. Forel and the rest like her do a grave diservice to the general public with their misinformation, misrepresentation of the facts and hysterical and unfounded claims of widespread cruelty in carriage livery.

    (This comment was posted by NY Press because Mrs. H.B. Willis unable to post. This is not the opinion of NY Press)

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